Nov 17 2009

Won’t Someone Please Think Of The Bigots?!?!

That’s right: Someone needs to think of the children bigots! Their rights are being trampled on! They’re being persecuted and repressed, and someone needs to consider their tender feelings!

The religious right in general, and the Archdiocese of Washington in particular, are up in arms about the Washington DC City Council. What is the Council doing to arouse such ire? They are considering the passage of the Religious Freedom and Civil Marriage Equality Amendment Act of 2009 (Bill 18-482). What evils are contained in this bill? What heinous acts will be permitted?

The Bill

The bill is intended to amend Chapter Forty-Three of An Act To establish a code of law for the District of Columbia, approved March 3, 1901 (31 Stat. 1391; D.C. Official Code § 46-401 passim).

The amendment would do the following:

To amend An Act To establish a code of law for the District of Columbia to permit same-sex couples to marry in the District of Columbia;

Oh my gosh! The next thing you know people will be marrying animals and… Yeah, right. The bigots can shut up now. We know what they’re upset about. Big fucking deal. Get over it. This is a civil rights issue, and your religion is on the wrong side of it.

What else does the amendment have to say?

…to ensure that no priest, minister, imam, or rabbi of any religious denomination and no official of any non-profit religious organization authorized to solemnize marriages shall be required to celebrate any marriage if doing so violates his or her right to the free exercise of religion;

There you go, religious bigots. There’s your “be-a-bigot-in-your-own-church-free” card. If your religion thinks same-sex marriages are a big no-no, you don’t have to take part in them. It’s up to you. No one is forcing you to get married to someone of the same sex, nor are they forcing you to perform the ceremony in your place of worship.

So, where’s the problem? Well, you might think that the issue of same-sex marriage itself is the problem, and you would not be entirely incorrect. There is, however, something more specific that the Catholics and others are upset about.

The big problem for the religious right is that the proposed legislation could leave them open to legal action in some cases if they continue their discriminatory practices. It also means that practicing their bigotry would mean that they would not be eligible to provide certain services under contract to the city.

From the 2009 November 10 press release from the Archdiocese of Washington:

“It is our concern that the committee’s narrowing of the religious exemption language will cause the government to discontinue our long partnership with them and open up the agency to litigation and the use of resources to defend our religious beliefs rather than serve the poor,” said Edward Orzechowski, president/CEO of Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Washington. Catholic Charities serves 68,000 people in the city each year. The city’s 40 Catholic parishes operate another 93 social service programs to provide crucial services.

There are some other niggling little details in the amendment, it seems. Section 1288 (31 Stat. 1392; D.C. Official Code ‘ 46-406), subsection (e) would contain the following language (the emphasis is mine):

Any refusal to provide services, accommodations, facilities or goods in accordance with this section shall not create any civil claim or cause of action, or result in any District action to penalize or withhold benefits from such entity, unless such entity makes such services, accommodations, facilities, or goods available for purchase, rental, or use to members of the general public.

So that’s where the problem is! The religious folks are afraid that if they provide a service (something like renting out a hall, for instance) to the general public, and a same-sex married couple wants to avail themselves of that service, then the religious folks would be open to a discrimination suit when they tell the same-sex couple to get lost (or get saved). Working under contract to the city would also mean that they could not discriminate against same-sex couples in other ways.

Their fears are not unwarranted. I do, however, have a very simple solution. Religious folk keep reminding me that their beliefs are very personal, and very private. [They do this by written or spoken word, not by action.]. The solution is to make their organization and any services, accommodations, facilities, or goods available to members only. They could make membership in their organization official with little membership cards and everything! They could be just like some of those country clubs in Georgia!

An Experiment

You’re probably saying that this is not a civil rights issue. You’re probably saying that the civil rights movement of forty or fifty years ago has nothing to do with a situation like today’s. You think not? Let’s try a little experiment. Let’s look at the first paragraph of a recent article from Christian News Wire:

The District of Columbia City Council is moving to pass a bill next month that would recognize same-sex relationships as marriage. The council has refused to exempt religious organizations or individuals from the mandate to treat same-sex couples as married. If the council majority persists, and if Congress does not intervene, Christian ministries could be forced to provide benefits to same-sex partners of employees, to place children for adoption with same-sex partners, and to offer counseling and support to same-sex couples.

Oh my! Can’t you just feel that righteous indignation jump off the page? Let me edit that text just slightly to reflect the bigotry of a few decades ago (my changes will be emphasized):

The District of Columbia City Council is moving to pass a bill next month that would recognize interracial relationships as marriage. The council has refused to exempt religious organizations or individuals from the mandate to treat mixed race couples as married. If the council majority persists, and if Congress does not intervene, Christian ministries could be forced to provide benefits to colored partners of employees, to place children for adoption with colored partners, and to offer counseling and support to mixed race couples.

That doesn’t sound very “Christian” these days, does it? Just fifty years ago you would not have been surprised to read something very much like that. Why is the original paragraph different? Bigotry is still bigotry, no matter what the decade, nor whom the recipient.

Bill Donohue Weighs In

Leave it to Bill Donohue to screw up an analogy so badly that it’s almost painful to read. Foaming-at-the-mouth Bill had this to say in a Catholic League press release:

If Alabama Governor George Wallace had told the Archdiocese of Mobile that as a condition of receiving state aid for social services it had to cease performing interracial marriages, few would have criticized the archdiocese for exercising its doctrinal prerogatives. Indeed, it may even have been applauded for doing so. Now it should not matter what the issue is that the Church decides it cannot in good conscience support—what should matter is its First Amendment religious liberty right to do so. The unprincipled, of course, cannot understand such logic.

Bill Donohue is absolutely wrong, as usual. He seems to have gotten his analogy backward. There was a time in the living memory of people in this country when the white churches in Mobile would not have performed a ceremony for a black or interracial couple. It would be more appropriate to consider the situation as one in which the Archdiocese of Mobile refused to perform interracial marriages after standing alongside George Wallace, supporting this famous line from his inaugural speech:

“In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”

It would be a more appropriate analogy to think of an Archbishop blocking a same-sex couple from entering the courthouse to get their marriage license, and General Henry Graham commanding him to step aside, saying, “Sir, it is my sad duty to ask you to step aside under the orders of the President of the United States.”

The Catholic Church and other religious groups are supporting the idea of segregation today. They are saying that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and trans-gendered individuals are less than human, and do not deserve the rights that are afforded to heterosexual (at least outwardly) Christians like them. Of course, this isn’t the first time they’ve done something like that.

Don’t you religious bigots try to tell me how different this situation is, either. I already know what you’re going to do. You’re going to tell me that your religious tradition decries homosexuality as a sin against your god. You’re going to justify your bigotry and hatred because of a few lines in your holy book.

The Curse of Ham

How many of you have heard of the “curse of Ham”? It comes from Genesis 9:20-27. Ham’s son, Canaan, was cursed by Noah: “And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.[All this because Noah got drunk and passed out naked in his tent. Ham actually saw him! Heaven forbid (literally)!]

The “curse of Ham” has been used Christians, Muslims, and Jews to justify racism and to justify the enslavement of people of Black African ancestry. Black Africans were believed to be descendants of Ham, and were often called Hamites. This justification of racism was used even into the mid twentieth century.

The Christians will now tell me that it’s different today. No one (very few who will admit to it, at any rate) believes that way any more. The people who thought that way were simply mistaken, and misinterpreted things. That early Old Testament stuff is not relevant in the same way as it was. It’s different today.

Yes, it is different today. Today those few lines that support your view don’t come from Genesis, but from Leviticus. They’re different lines, but they’re still used to justify hatred and bigotry. Most Christians are still hateful, and they’re still bigots. Will they change on their own, or are we going to have to drag them, kicking and screaming if need be, into the twenty-first century?

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  1. Funny how with the New Covenant with Jesus, everything in Leviticus that matters got wiped out (you know, eating lobster, killing your children for cursing at you, etc.), but the prohibitions on homosexuality are still For All Time. Early Old Testaments must have had that part of Leviticus asterisked or something.

    1. I think perhaps that verse had one of those tags like you find on matresses: “Not to be removed under any circumstances, blah blah blah…

  2. It is wrong for the godless to force their morality on others. The fact that the godless want to punish people who disagree with them is clearly immoral. This is what scares me about the godless is that it is their way or you get punished.

    Natural selection has chosen Christianity as the best moral system for the survival of the human race. You should learn to respect natural selection!

    Christianity is based on love and not lust. The fact that people lust for each other is not love. Christianity is the largest belief system in the world because it recognizes the reality of love being different than lust.

    The godless want everything to be lust (fulfillment of selfish interest); however, true love involved the sacrifice of self-interest which is irrational in an Atheistic worldview. This is the big weakness of the godless mindset because everyone knows that chemicals don’t love chemicals.

    The idea of the godless supporting a religious institution of marriage is also contradictory. I never thought they would support the idea; however, I have never found the godless to be very consistent in their use of reason.

    God Bless…

    1. Don’t give me your “god bless” bullshit after spewing hatred and bigotry like that. I’ll refute your fucking bullshit later this morning when I have more time. For now simply understand that you are a fucking slimeball bigot who deserves no compassion from true human beings.

      1. Dan stated that I don’t “deserv no compassion from true human beings”

        As I stated, Christianity is about love. Christians want to help people overcome the things that keep them in bondage. We love both our friends and our enemies (those who have matured in the reality of love).

        You stated it very clearly Dan that I don’t deserve compassion since I am less than human in your worldview.

        In fact, your language is very informative about your view of humanity. You only loves those who agree with you and if you disagree with someone then they can be treated like a rock in your driveway.

        The fact is that you don’t have to live a life of anger and hate. You can live a life of love. The reality of love is real and it is for everyone.

        We all are sinners in need of the love of God to overcome our sinful impulses. We all have desires to lust for things rather than love others.

        Christians have countless ministries to the poor, uneducated, forsaken, the hurting, those caught in sexual addictions, etc.. because we want everyone to experience freedom and love rather than live in bondage to lust or addiction.

        I would never say that you were less than human. In fact, just the opposite, you are very special to the Lord and you have as much value as me. You were made in the image of God and God is calling you out of this world to enjoy His love forever.

        God Bless…

        1. This coming from a man who treats anyone who is not a heterosexual christian as a second-class citizen?

          No, zdenny, you do not deserve compassion from me, or from any other free-thinking individual. You deserve no compassion because you have shown quite clearly that you refuse to give it to others. You deserve my pity, if that. I pity you your small-minded bigotry. I pity you your hatred and fear of anyone different from you.

          I have actual compassion for your wife and children, forced forever to be linked to someone so overflowing with hatred toward others.

            • zdenny on 2009/11/18 at 18:15

            We now know that homosexuality is harmful to both society and to the individual living that lifestyle.

            Since I believe this and all honest studies show this to be true, I have to show love to those caught up in homosexuality because I don’t enjoy watching them hurt themselves or anyone else for that matter.

            The people I think are cruel are the ones who say that homosexuality cannot be overcome. Christians have literally countless examples of people who have overcome this lifestyle. We all know that they are being dishonest about this fact because we all know people who have overcome and escaped that lifestyle.

            Why stay in a lifestyle that (although difficult to overcome) can be overcome? It is hurting them and the people they know. In fact, just look at the anger in your post…it is hurting you!

            The current head of the Exodus Ministry was involved in over 300 relationships before encountering the love of God that changed his life.

            We need to tell people the truth about deviations from the plan of God. We need to love them and show them the love of God that is found in Christ Jesus our Lord!

            Don’t be full of anger and hate my friend… You need to know the reality of love just as much as the next guy.

            If you really loved the person caught up in homosexuality, you wouldn’t try to convince them to remain in a lifestyle that is harming themselves, their interest, their family and society as a whole.

            You would introduce them to the reality of love; however, since you don’t know this reality, you are hurting yourself. You need the love of God just as much as any homosexual out there. His love can change your life!

            God Bless…

            • Dan J on 2009/11/18 at 22:35

            We now know that homosexuality is harmful to both society and to the individual living that lifestyle.

            Bullshit. How do you “know” this to be a fact? Where are the studies? Where are your citations?

            You don’t “know” this because it isn’t true.

            The people I think are cruel are the ones who say that homosexuality cannot be overcome. Christians have literally countless examples of people who have overcome this lifestyle. We all know that they are being dishonest about this fact because we all know people who have overcome and escaped that lifestyle.

            Spoken like a true homophobic bigot. You speak of homosexuality like it’s some sort of disease. I’ve got news for you, zdenny: There’s nothing to “overcome”. There’s no need. It’s a life that people lead because it’s who they are. They don’t want to change because there’s nothing wrong with who they are. The only people who think it’s wrong are homophobic bigots just like you.

            It sickens me to think that I share the same species as slimeball fuckwad bigots like you.

          1. #We now know that homosexuality is harmful to both society and to the individual living that lifestyle.”

            Just a few small thinking Mr bigot zdenny… who is this “we”? where is your evidence that being gay is harmful ? And please do not use the word lifestyle ..it’s insulting, arrogant and wrong. I do not live a lifestyle – I ‘m genetically gay.always have been..tried to hide it…tried to love women..nope sorry doesn’t work for me.

            It’s the usual preacher fed comments typical of christians..that gay people choose to be different…what utter crap..ask Ted Haggard 🙂

    2. [comment removed for further editing]

      There’s simply too much to say to that tripe. I’m going to turn it into a full post. Link forthcoming.

  3. “It is wrong for the godless to force their morality on others.” — wait, I thought the godless had no morality. Get yer story straight, buddy.

  4. As a member of the minority that is being rigorously discriminated against I find your comments truly replusive, arrogant, bigoted and wrong Zdenny.

    You “poor” deluded “high and mighty” Christians have persecuted women as witches, applauded the killing of gay and lesbian people throughout the ages and are still doing it now. Representatives of your churches tried to stop an anti hate crime law in memory of a boy who was beaten and left to die on a fence for being gay..something entirely natural and unchangeable.

    You wonder why atheist sometimes get upset…your God, your religions, your churches are pure hatred for gay, lesbian, transgendered and bisexual people and yet you scream your it’s your belief and right to promote that hatred. SHAME ON YOU

    Zdenny you’ve gone too far this time…you are pure evil filth.

    1. Petu, how has anyone wronged you? My goodness… You have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You live in the freest country in the world all due to Christianity who gave you these freedoms.

      I wish you knew the love of God so that you could overcome your bondage to the world. The love of God will free you so that you affections are set on things above rather than on the things in this world.

      The fact is that the godless are trying to force people to accept something that the vast majority believes is immoral. You have to learn to respect people who are different. You can’t force people to accept something that they believe is immoral.

      If the situation was flipped, I am certain you don’t want people to be forcing you to believe in Jesus. If you failed to past the test, then you would lose your ability to do business with the State. This is what the godless are doing. If you don’t make a commitment to homosexuality, then you are punished by the State. This is wrong.

      You see, you believe in Theocracy; however, you want to the godless to be in charge of it. The godless want a theocracy where they dictate to mankind everything they should believe. I simply think this is wrong and immoral.

      Respect the electoral process and respect the will of the people. If you disagree, don’t go around calling everyone a bigot and evil. Rather, reason with them! Emotionalism expressed through anger simply reveals the condition of your heart which is in need of love.

    2. zdenny you are under a misapprehension that i may be in the US. I’m not…in fact I’m in a lot free-er, less corrupt, better society where everyone is treated the same. We do not have 2nd class citizens in the Netherlands..we accept everyone how they are by law and treat them the same..even down to the fact that everyone, gay straight undecided inbetween black white brown yellow green purple and blue can choose to either have a civil partnerships or a marriage..now that is true equality. It sickens me to see the US ..that prides itself on it’s inclusiveness actively discriminating against certain sections of it’s populace..first it was black people..now it’s lesbians and gays. In fact this segregation of rights brings one to mind the theocracies of the middle east.

      I’ll also find if you read your history books better..the American Constitution as it is was written by a lot of fervently Godless people ..it’s explicitly states in numerous treaties from the 18th century that the US was found expressly not on christian principles. See a Brit living in the Netherlands know’s more of your own countries history than you do…

      As for your other tripe..I do not have affection for “things” ..I have affection for people..all people..but the people who I am attracted to just happen to be the same thing, not just lust..but love and how and who I choose to spend my life is is not yours or any business of your make believe sky fairy and what I choose to do in the bedroom and who with should not be legally discriminated against.

      Go and read your Leviticus…and see how long you’d be free on the streets of the US by following all the rules there……unless of course you admit to us now that you only pick and choose the bits of the bible you follow.

  5. and by the way..superb post by the way Dan !!

    • chaosagent on 2009/11/18 at 23:01
    • Reply

    Wow, there is so much to say. So much that comes from intolerance and blindness to what it is that they are spewing forth and projecting on others. I am really sickened and disgusted by zdenny’s complete disregard for anything of substance and his continued projections.

    You claim “Natural selection has chosen Christianity as the best moral system for the survival of the human race. You should learn to respect natural selection!”

    That from someone who seems to say that evolution is a horrible lie and the cause of so much evil in this world. Wow. Seems that you want to claim that little part of evolution when it benefits you.

    Also: “It is wrong for the godless to force their morality on others. The fact that the godless want to punish people who disagree with them is clearly immoral. This is what scares me about the godless is that it is their way or you get punished.”

    You don’t know me, nor can you judge me (what about that little “judge not, lest ye be judged…???) or my morals. What are my morals if you are all knowing in your funditarded beliefs? Really? Answer that? What are they? Why are they so wrong? And since you know all of that, why are they so detrimental to you? How are my morals punishing you? Tell me these things. Really.

    Also: “Christianity is based on love and not lust. The fact that people lust for each other is not love. Christianity is the largest belief system in the world because it recognizes the reality of love being different than lust.”

    Really? Based on love? Would that be the boy-love that the Catholic church and NAMBLA support? Christianity is the largest brainwashing cult is what you meant to say there, and they are in that position because of their lust of money, power, and control.

    Also: “The godless want everything to be lust (fulfillment of selfish interest); however, true love involved the sacrifice of self-interest which is irrational in an Atheistic worldview. This is the big weakness of the godless mindset because everyone knows that chemicals don’t love chemicals.”

    Wow. Since you can read everyone(who doesn’t follow your funditarded belief system)’s mind I don’t know how you can stand all that hot atheistic action. Is it difficult to imagine all those lustful atheists or does it come natural because x-tian’s are SO GOOD at supressing such urges?? (Unless you’re someone like Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard, Tony Alamo, etc. Oh, they probably aren’t REAL x-tian’s are they? Because you know, they went with their urges and not ~love~). I just don’t know what you consider love, and I guess I never will because all I can feel is lust. That’s fine, I don’t mind lusting after the one I’ve decided to spend my life with. The one that I’ve lived the past 13 years with. Not a big deal. And it’s fine if they lust after me too. I’m not a repressed person. I guess you could say that I’m just in my marriage for lots and lots of cock. Not the companionship or friendship. Just hot, throbbing cock. Does that make you jealous that I can just come out and say that? Or does that make you embarassed?

    Also: “The idea of the godless supporting a religious institution of marriage is also contradictory. I never thought they would support the idea; however, I have never found the godless to be very consistent in their use of reason.”

    I’d say it’s entirely reasonable to say that I don’t support the religious institution of marriage. I support the legal institution of marriage. I didn’t go to some godbot cult haven to get married. I went to the county clerk’s office, got the license and got married in my own fucking house. A minister didn’t officiate. A friend did. There’s a nice little thing about the state I live in, (which I like to call REALITY), you don’t need a judge or an official of any church to perform the wedding, just someone that you feel has the authority to perform said ceremony. Nothing religitardish about a good friend doing that is there?

    I feel very sorry about your illness zdenny. It’s not often that I see someone so infected with idiocy and willful ignorance. Try to open up your eyes and quite trying to repress others and cry foul because they just want equal rights.

  6. (what about that little “judge not, lest ye be judged…???) — You think he actually reads the bible? He has the Love of God ™ why on Earth would he need to read?

      • chaosagent on 2009/11/18 at 23:16
      • Reply

      I don’t think he does. I think he just likes to argue *pridefully* about his superiority over everyone that doesn’t follow his funditarded beliefs. I mean it’s obvious the brainwashing was a little too good on this one. Sheep indeed.

    • chaosagent on 2009/11/18 at 23:13
    • Reply

    By the way, I was NOT referring to the National Marlon Brando Look-alike club when referring to NAMBLA. Sorry Marlon Brando look-alikes. I didn’t mean to compare to catholics.

    • chaosagent on 2009/11/18 at 23:19
    • Reply

    Oh yeah: “We now know that homosexuality is harmful to both society and to the individual living that lifestyle.”

    Don’t lie zdenny. You know that shit is totally hot. You just don’t want to admit it. You like the cock too. You’re just afraid of it.

    1. LOL…if you do a google on every statement of zdenny’s you can see they’ve all been lifted from other people’s sites and preachers quote…

      (Christianity x( following blindly) = lack of original thought )= bitter twisted hatred

        • chaosagent on 2009/11/19 at 07:35
        • Reply

        Imagine that, x-tian’s stealing from somewhere and claiming it as their own. Sounds kinda familiar. Like their whole mythology stolen from other religions.

  7. petursey,

    No one is saying that people don’t struggle with the curse of sin. However, you can overcome your bondage by knowing the love of God that is in Christ Jesus!

    You see, you don’t believe in the reality of love. You think love is a chemical reaction and reduce it to a feeling. If you knew the reality of love, then you would seek freedom from all bondages connected to this world.

    Ted Haggart is a great example of a person who struggles. He is now starting his own church in his own after asking the Christian community to forgive him. God is awesome like that because you don’t have to live a defeated life. You can overcome the lust of the flesh through the love of God that is found in Christ Jesus.

    By knowing the reality of love, you can say “NO” to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. God’s love causes us to sacrifice self-interest out of love for Him and His presence to be known in our life.

    Christians have thousands of examples. Exodus Ministries is a great start if you really want to find a way out. You simply have believed the lie that is told by activist who are seeking to keep you in bondage to the flesh. Don’t buy it because their advice will destroy your life… I can see all the anger in your post so I know it has to be true.

    God Bless…

      • chaosagent on 2009/11/19 at 17:30
      • Reply

      What a sad, vile little man you are zdenny. You know nothing about other’s feelings, nor do you care to listen to anyone about their feelings. Are you inside another person’s skin, knowing their every thought, every emotion? Not hardly. You aren’t even in reality. You consistantly judge others from your lofty throne of arrogance that ‘x-tian love’ is the only love. Would that be the same love that is killing hundreds of children in Africa right now because they have been branded ‘witches’ by the church? Or would that be the same ‘love’ that set people to the torch and gibbet in the witch hunts in Europe and North America? Would that be the same ‘love’ of the Crusades?

      Why anyone in their right mind would follow such contemptable twaddle that your so-called holy book proves just how brainwashed x-tians are. And before once again you get on your high horse of parroting other people’s arguments at everyone here, stop and think about what it is you are saying. You are putting words in others mouths. You are saying that you know everything that are in those people’s heads by claiming that those who do not follow your religion don’t know what love is, don’t know how to live a moral life, yet you cannot explain what it is that is so immoral about our lives. Or how you know that we don’t experience love. You avoided my questions on that because apparently you don’t like the trollish attitude turned back on yourself. Or perhaps it’s the fact that you can’t stand the thought of a woman that can speak her own mind and have thoughts of their own without going to some sky fairy, or their father, or their husband for permission to speak. I don’t need those things. I have my own mind. I have my own thoughts. I walk on my own two feet.

      I’m not angry. I know you have made many others angry and have been banned from their comments. You are dangerously close of it here. I really don’t get angry about trolls. And you are one. Don’t believe me? Look up the word troll and see. Your willful ignorance into matters that you don’t grasp, nor do you understand make you a troll. And while you might try the ‘why are you/atheists so angry’ nonsense, that doesn’t wash. You are the one making the atheists angry. Because you are so sadly and willfully ignorant. You spout off line after line of nonsense like any good troll. You don’t care about those that you spout that nonsense at. How very christian of you.

      The rule of thumb for dealing with trolls is always, don’t feed them. You see, I don’t mind feeding you. You are a contemptable man that deserves the derision you bring upon yourself for your hubris. And for the record, Mithras called, he’d like his birthday back.

      1. Chaos, it is simply common sense at work.

        If homosexuality is genetic, then it certainly should be discouraged. If it spread to the whole population, the end of humanity would occur. In fact, if you universalize abortion, it results in the end of humanity, if you universalize murder, it results in the end of humanity, if you universalize homosexuality, it results in the end of humanity. We know it is absolutely wrong and hurtful because you can clearly see the result when universalized.

        Second, if homosexuality is not genetic, then it is merely a choice. The lifestyle itself is very destructive to the person involved in it and if we love our fellow man, we should encourage others to move away from that lifestyle. My kid touch the stove three times before he learned it was hurting him to touch the stove. Some people can’t see how they are hurting themselves (we have tons of these types of examples)

        I had a guy tell me he was gay for many years and said it with a straight face. A couple years later he was married and happily married I should add. He had learned the secret that life was not about lust; rather, it was about love. Love called him to sacrifice his desires out of love for his mate. He realized that this principle can be applied to every area of his life.

        I have also seen people pulled into homosexuality because they had a low self-esteem that others then exploited. She felt acceptance and guys didn’t show an interest in her so someone who was lusting after her took advantage of that.

        I don’t really see any positives associated with the homosexual life. It has the same power over the individual similar to what alcoholics or drug users experience. I know former drug users who still have desires for the drugs; however, they have learned to love the Lord and their family more.

        I think the only reasons that the godless support homosexuality is because they believe in population reduction measures which leads them to support homosexuality and abortion. Both have the same effect of reducing the population.

        In fact, that is why the godless don’t believe in the reality of love, they think knowledge of the reality of love is the cause of population increases. If you know you will be with your family for eternity, it is best to have a family and a large one. This is exactly what the godless don’t want because of their desire to control the population (which has the effect of promoting the celebration of death in our society rather than life).

        The only way to overcome lust is with love. That is why you have to know the reality of love known by faith in Jesus Christ. Without His love, you never can really know love, you can only know a passing feeling which is chemically induced that a person may call love.

        God Bless!

          • chaosagent on 2009/11/20 at 12:29
          • Reply

          zdenny said: “Chaos, it is simply common sense at work.

          “If homosexuality is genetic, then it certainly should be discouraged. If it spread to the whole population, the end of humanity would occur. In fact, if you universalize abortion, it results in the end of humanity, if you universalize murder, it results in the end of humanity, if you universalize homosexuality, it results in the end of humanity. We know it is absolutely wrong and hurtful because you can clearly see the result when universalized.”

          Seriously. Proof or shut the fuck up. Hearsay isn’t proof, nor will it ever be. Homosexuality is natural. It occurs in the animal kingdom. It’s not a choice. What you have for dinner is a choice. There is no ‘universalizing’ being gay. Either you are or you aren’t. Simple. Proof to the contrary is where? There is lots of information to be had on the subject, the thing is though, you funditards refuse to believe it because… well, it’s makes homosexuality a choice, and then you can be bigots. Don’t believe me? What does wikipedia say?
          Homosexuality in animals

          Unlike you, I’m not afraid to state sources and not repeat blindly what others have said. So far all you’ve given is anecdotal evidence and hearsay. So what if you knew a guy that thought he was gay and realized that later maybe it isn’t what was for him. Did it ever strike you that he might be bisexual? I have friends that are out of the closet now that pretended to be straight. They have kids from the straight relationship. Does that mean I have all the evidence that you are incorrect in your assumption? No, it means that people are different. I do doubt your source though because you don’t seem to have a real thought in your head except to parrot the same tired old lies that others have stated before. That’s the thing with bigots. “I don’t hate *black/gay/minority* people, some of my best friends are…”

          zdenny said: “I have also seen people pulled into homosexuality because they had a low self-esteem that others then exploited. She felt acceptance and guys didn’t show an interest in her so someone who was lusting after her took advantage of that.”

          That’s got nothing to do with being gay or straight. That has entirely to do with being exploited. If anyone knows anything about exploiting others it’s the church. If you can’t think for yourself and make choices on your own, don’t bawwww! later that it was one group of people or another’s fault for your own stupidity. If you can’t trust yourself, then I say, you get what you deserve for your stupidity.

          “I don’t really see any positives associated with the homosexual life. It has the same power over the individual similar to what alcoholics or drug users experience. I know former drug users who still have desires for the drugs; however, they have learned to love the Lord and their family more. ”

          Again, you equate being gay with something it is not. Inferring things does not make you right. You not seeing positives to a thing doesn’t make it right. Being gay is not the same as drugs and alcohol. How do I know? Personal experience. Don’t like that? Too bad. Have you lived with any kind of addict? Have you lived with a gay person? No, I didn’t think so, otherwise you wouldn’t flippantly make those inferences. By the way, I have more proof that being gay is natural than you have of your sky fairy.

          zdenny said: “I think the only reasons that the godless support homosexuality is because they believe in population reduction measures which leads them to support homosexuality and abortion. Both have the same effect of reducing the population.”

          Assumption, assumption, assumption. Being gay has nothing to do with having children. Nothing at all. Being gay doesn’t suddenly make one’s reproductive system not work. I have gay friends that have done more to increase the population than I have. Probably because I don’t have any kids and I don’t want any. I come from one of those large families and find no humor in bringing more lives into a world that has a hard enough time sustaining all the human nonsense as it is. And by the way, I support homosexuals because it’s not right to suppress a whole portion of a society because a bunch of bigots don’t agree with them. As I said before, you sure assume alot about others. By the way, Monty Python called…

          httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

          zdenny said: “In fact, that is why the godless don’t believe in the reality of love blah blah blah tl:dr…

          Assumption. I’m still waiting for your proof of these things as they apply to every person in this world that doesn’t follow your brainwashing zombie jewish cult. Seriously. zdenny want a cracker? When you can actually answer a question, we can play some more.

        1. If being female is genetic, then it certainly should be discouraged. If it spread to the whole population, the end of humanity would occur. If you universalize being female, it results in the end of humanity.

            • Mossa on 2009/11/24 at 05:51

            I wish I culd rate comments. If so 5 stars from me ^^

            “if 5 stars wuld be the max that is”

    • Bael Zebubious on 2009/11/20 at 12:18
    • Reply

    zdenny,
    I love how you view Homosexuality and Abortion as choices, which you predict will lead to the end of human existence if either becomes universal. Granted, if every single person became somehow magically gay or the remaining straight inhabitants chose to have abortions, then yes the world very could last one final generation, albeit a colorful one. Then perhaps your logic would be undoubtedly correct.

    However we live in a world where fictitious Homo-comets don’t suddenly make everyone gay nor do the abortion clinics have people knocking their door down for a quick fetus vacuuming. Figuratively there are 6.8 billion people on the Earth today with that number steadily growing because the organized Church preaches it’s sermon of creation and procreation. A time will arise when the number of people outweigh the ability to provide the food provided to fill the bellies of those people. I trust that when that comes we shall have the word of the Holy Scriptures to fill that hunger or provide a meal to a starving family.

    Homosexuality & Abortion is a choice, but one some feel they must accept to deal with their own personal situation. It is your right to view it as an abomination, and then I recommend you don’t have an abortion or swallow your neighbors seed. I personally find your attitude on the subject extremely invidious. Judging people you don’t know or could you possibly understand. Judging a person is something only GOD can do! I would be seriously be concerned for your own moral soul, since you somehow seem to be judging people, by seeing yourself as the prophet of God at the very least if not preluding that you are indeed God himself. Lest you be reminded:
    “I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt not have any strange gods before me”
    Surely a man of your moral standing should recognize those words. I say repent upon thyself before you cast stones at another.

    BZB

    1. *knock knock*

      “Abortionists calling!”

      “Oh, honey, the abortionists are at the door. Did you want any?”

      *opens door*

      “I’ll have two please.”

      “We’re running a special on twins at the moment! That’ll be $5. Just drop your panties and we’ll prep the Hoover.”

  8. I’m not going to respond to zdenny…
    I am gay..
    I am happy being gay..
    I am not sinning or hurting anyone else I am just living my life the best way I can..
    I am in a wonderful relationship with a wonderful man….
    I had no choice being gay…
    I tried being straight made me ill and unhappy..
    I am not ashamed of being gay in fact I wouldn’t have it any other way.
    No one recruited me, no one forced me…. the only time I’ve ever regretted being gay was when a preacher reported me to the police when I was 21 for falling in love with one of his flock (the same preacher took 30% of all their salaries because God told him to)…

    Zdenny you are full of hate, condescending arrogant stolen lines from other misinformed christians, tripe, twaddle and quite frankly bullshit.

    I know a lot of christian’s who love and accept everyone…not hate and arrogant condescend and vilify certain minorities as you do.

    You are a pathetic excuse of a human being.

    Oh and by the way your anti-abortion stance is so misogynistic … it’s a woman’s body..her right to choose… you’re a man (me too) we cannot understand that situation and never will and it’s not our place to comment on something we’ll never know or experience.

    1. I’ve noticed that there’s a bit of circular argument coming from the theists / homophobes. They say “look at all that pain that comes from people being gay! We just want people to not be gay so they don’t have that pain!” Then they teach everyone that gayness is so wrong and evil, and someone in the congregation goes out and causes pain by, say, torturing and murdering someone. Then the theists say, “see, we told you being gay causes pain!”

      Fucking disgusting.

  9. Petursey

    Actually, my thoughts are all original. I think you are use to talking with Christians who only know the Word of God. I am familiar with many different subjects having studied for years.

    I was first interested in homosexuality because I found it hard to believe that the power of God could change anybody except a homosexual.

    I had seen the love of God changed liars, cheaters, even killers. Was homosexuality too hard for God?

    I took a look at the studies and I saw a pattern. The people who signed up for the studies were set on proving the assumption that homosexuality is unalterable. The pool was biased and poisoned from the beginning which corrupted the study.

    My next thought was, “What would happen if you had a pool of people in a study who actually wanted to escape the lifestyle?”

    Wheaton College did just this type of study. They found that over 55% of the people were completely freed of the impulse after a period of seven years! The numbers were low because a number of them stopped the study having been freed of it and did not want to finish the seven year study. On top of this, there would still have been 20-25% of them who got into the study to make a point. That put the recovery rate right around 90% which was incredible!

    The Wheaton study was based on people who actually sought out help from a Christian organization and found the freedom they were looking for.

    The study also confirmed my experience with the gay community. I realized that the power of God can change anyone including the gay guy out there. Exodus Ministries has countless examples of people who now live a life of love rather than self.

    The problem with your argument is that it is based on self-interest. You are stating that you won’t change your behavior no matter what because your needs are ultimate! Christianity argues that this is the basis of rejecting God Himself because selfishness always conflicts with love.

    Christianity says just the opposite of what you are preaching. Christianity says that man’s needs are not ultimate; rather, we can sacrifice self-interest because of God’s love which is at work in us.

    Christians all have struggles since we live in a world full of temptation; however, all selfish desires (lust) can be overcome by the reality of love. I mean all of them!! There are no exceptions.

    I think Jason’s argument is once again based on ignorance. He doesn’t know the reality of love and mocks those who speak about it. In his worldview, the only thing that exist is self interest based on the survival of matter. I think Jason said it best when he argued that “altruism is based on selfishness.” (A logical contradiction)

    The weakness of godliness is that their is no love and only self interest. When you help someone, it is only to get a good feeling. Why not take a shower and get a good feeling? Of course, some people get a good feeling by robbing a bank and walking away with a few thousand. A good feeling is a horrible way to measure love; however, this is what Jason does on his blog….

    God Bless..

    1. Where to start with this bullshit again:

      I am familiar with many different subjects having studied for years.

      You keep bringing this up, yet you never give any specifics. Where did you study? What degress did you attain? What were your primary areas of study? I keep asking, but never receive a response.

      I had seen the love of God changed liars, cheaters, even killers. Was homosexuality too hard for God?

      Is changing the color of someone’s eyes from blue to brown too hard for your god? Is changing someone from male to female too hard for your god? Is my raging cock too hard for your god? (Couldn’t resist.)

      I took a look at the studies and I saw a pattern. The people who signed up for the studies were set on proving the assumption that homosexuality is unalterable. The pool was biased and poisoned from the beginning which corrupted the study.

      I’m calling bullshit. What studies?

      My next thought was, “What would happen if you had a pool of people in a study who actually wanted to escape the lifestyle?”

      Well, if the pool of people think of it as a ‘lifestyle’, and they “wanted to escape”, that’s about as biased as you can get.

      Wheaton College did just this type of study.

      Wheaton College?!?! [There are several colleges by that name, but I’m assuming zdenny refers to Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois, a four year Christian liberal arts college whose motto is, “Christo et Regno Ejus,” or “For Christ and His Kingdom.”] You actually want to cite Wheaton as the source for an unbiased study about homosexuality?!?!!? The home of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics?!?! That’s got to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.

      If you’re going to cite the study, how about providing a link to said study?

      The problem with your argument is that it is based on self-interest.

      Damned right it is! That’s not a bug: it’s a feature. The interest of your religion or your god doesn’t enter into the equation. Fuck your religion; Fuck your god; and Fuck you.

      I was first interested in homosexuality because I found it hard…

      Yep, I bet you did find it hard. I bet thoughts like this were the reason it was hard, too:

      The Real Temptation of Christ

      • chaosagent on 2009/11/20 at 16:07
      • Reply

      zdenny said: “I was first interested in homosexuality because I found it hard to believe that the power of God could change anybody except a homosexual.”

      Uh huh. Are you sure it wasn’t because it’s hot? (Look I can infer too!)

      zdenny said: “I took a look at the studies and I saw a pattern. The people who signed up for the studies were set on proving the assumption that homosexuality is unalterable. The pool was biased and poisoned from the beginning which corrupted the study.”

      Links or it didn’t happen.

      zdenny said: “Wheaton College did just this type of study. They found that over 55% of the people were completely freed of the impulse after a period of seven years! The numbers were low because a number of them stopped the study having been freed of it and did not want to finish the seven year study. On top of this, there would still have been 20-25% of them who got into the study to make a point. That put the recovery rate right around 90% which was incredible!”

      Are you sure it wasn’t exodus ministries that did this study? I’m not seeing any proof. Just hearsay. Links or it didn’t happen. Seriously. Places that claim to cure “teh ghey” don’t count. They’re biased. I want to see unbiased sources. Oh, and what Wheaton College? The one in Massechusetts? Or the funditarded one in Illinois? That’s not a real source. That’s a biased source. Like I said. Links or it didn’t happen.

      zdenny said: “The problem with your argument is that it is based on self-interest. You are stating that you won’t change your behavior no matter what because your needs are ultimate! Christianity argues that this is the basis of rejecting God Himself because selfishness always conflicts with love.”

      Bwahahahahaha! Why expect a gay person to understand themself. They don’t know what they’re feeling. Fuck man, you really are stupid and brainwashed. Oh wait, you said that yourself earlier. Didn’t it go like this: “Actually, my thoughts are all original. I think you are use to talking with Christians who only know the Word of God. I am familiar with many different subjects having studied for years.” zdenny want a cracker? This is what I’m talking about, your inability to allow for the fact that you and your zombie desert god don’t know everything, let alone what’s in another’s heart. Oh what a sad little man you are.

      zdenny said: “Christianity says just the opposite of what you are preaching. Christianity says that man’s needs are not ultimate; rather, we can sacrifice self-interest because of God’s love which is at work in us.”

      You can sacrifice to your zombie jewish god all you want. It doesn’t hurt me unless you’re oppressing others. Which is what you are preaching. No matter about the little flatteries about love. That’s a fucking cover to hold down and oppress people. You think the church doesn’t profit off this bullshit? Please. And for the record, nobody is out trying to preach the gospel of “the ghey” or atheism. I mean, come the fuck on. Get over your bullshit “poor little oppressed me.” The only oppressing going on is by you sky fairy fucktards.

      zdenny said: “Christians all have struggles since we live in a world full of temptation; however, all selfish desires (lust) can be overcome by the reality of love. I mean all of them!! There are no exceptions.”

      You struggle with your ‘lust’. I’m gonna enjoy that shit.

      zdenny said: “I think Jason’s argument is once again based on ignorance. He doesn’t know the reality of love and mocks those who speak about it. In his worldview, the only thing that exist is self interest based on the survival of matter. I think Jason said it best when he argued that “altruism is based on selfishness.” (A logical contradiction)”

      Here, let me fix that for you. “I think zdenny’s argument is once again based on ignorance. He doesn’t know the reality of life and ignores those who speak about it. In his world view, the only thing that exists is god based on a book put together hundreds of years after a bunch of goat herders in the desert passed around their oral tradition of explaining the psychological hold they had on their fellow men. I think zdenny said it best when he argued that “Actually, my thoughts are all original. I think you are use to talking with Christians who only know the Word of God. I am familiar with many different subjects having studied for years.”, except a simple google search proves all his arguments to be the same recycled, retreaded bullshit that many others have spouted before. No one brainwashes quite as well as organized religion.

      zdenny said: “The weakness of godliness is that their is no love and only self interest.”

      Really, I’m flattered that you think so well of us all over here, but we don’t claim to be deities. Remember, gods doesn’t real.

      zdenny said: “When you help someone, it is only to get a good feeling. Why not take a shower and get a good feeling? Of course, some people get a good feeling by robbing a bank and walking away with a few thousand. A good feeling is a horrible way to measure love; however, this is what Jason does on his blog…”

      I help people all the time. It’s not to get pleasure, I mean, if I was looking to get my jollies on something like that, I would totally be doing porno or something. Then I could help lots of lonely men get off. That’s fucking charity man. Some people get a good feeling by robbing banks? Dude what kind of fucking deviants do you know? Most people rob banks for money. I mean, I didn’t know they kept whores in banks nowadays. Shit, I’m gonna have to get me a safe deposit box and see what kind of perk I get outta that! And dude, seriously, robbing banks=love? Wow. How many blows did you take to the head in infancy? I mean, most people aren’t born that stupid. Did your parents particularly hate you for some reason and volunteered you to be a crash test dummy or something?

    2. Altruism was selected for (you know — evolution by natural selection, which you don’t believe in), because helping society helps you in the long run. Just because being selfless happens to trigger some reward-mechanisms in your brain (and you can’t deny that — being good to others DOES feel good), doesn’t mean that it is selfish, that you’re doing it JUST to get that “good feeling”. You should go back and read the article I linked to. Since you never read it in the first place.

  10. Petu, how has anyone wronged you? My goodness… You have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You live in the freest country in the world all due to Christianity who gave you these freedoms.

    Your ignorance of history seems to be contagious these days, zDenny. Perhaps we could tea-bag together someday.

      • JG on 2010/05/26 at 04:13
      • Reply

      aka, remember the Enlightenment, zDenny?

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