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Nov 20 2009

This is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things

My post of 17 November, “Won’t Someone Please Think Of The Bigots?!?!”, prompted a response from my favorite Evangelical Christian Fruitcake, zdenny. [Actually, it prompted an exchange between zdenny and several others who took turns pointing out the utter stupidity of his claims.]

I have to say that zdenny responded in a way that I completely expected. His first comment illustrates the thought processes (or lack thereof) behind the bigotry and hatred of those who are opposed to gay marriage. It also illustrates why we can’t have nice things.

This is why we can't have nice things

I present this response not in the hopes that zdenny will change his mind [Inconceivable!] about any part of the issue, but in the hopes that others are able to better see how deeply the hatred and bigotry against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans-gendered individuals is ingrained in the minds of many Christians.

Here is zdenny’s first comment in full, though I will respond to each section individually below:

It is wrong for the godless to force their morality on others. The fact that the godless want to punish people who disagree with them is clearly immoral. This is what scares me about the godless is that it is their way or you get punished.

Natural selection has chosen Christianity as the best moral system for the survival of the human race. You should learn to respect natural selection!

Christianity is based on love and not lust. The fact that people lust for each other is not love. Christianity is the largest belief system in the world because it recognizes the reality of love being different than lust.

The godless want everything to be lust (fulfillment of selfish interest); however, true love involved the sacrifice of self-interest which is irrational in an Atheistic worldview. This is the big weakness of the godless mindset because everyone knows that chemicals don’t love chemicals.

The idea of the godless supporting a religious institution of marriage is also contradictory. I never thought they would support the idea; however, I have never found the godless to be very consistent in their use of reason.

God Bless…

Where to even begin with this load of tripe? Let’s start from the very beginning, one section at a time. This will be a bit slow, and perhaps a bit painful, though not as painful as reading the original comment.

Forcing Morality

Zdenny said:

It is wrong for the godless to force their morality on others. The fact that the godless want to punish people who disagree with them is clearly immoral. This is what scares me about the godless is that it is their way or you get punished.

The first thing that strikes me is that you use the word ‘godless’. Are you completely unaware of the fact that there are large numbers of Christians who support same sex marriage? Are you completely unaware that many of those Christians are homosexuals themselves? Yes, you probably are unaware of that fact. Actually, you’re probably not unaware, per se, as much as you are in denial.

Your claim about others attempting to force their morality on you sounds very familiar. It seems that people have said nearly the same thing at several times in our country’s past. Let’s see what was happening at those other times:

  • Civil libertarians and human rights advocates were fighting against slavery in this country. The US Civil War was the culmination of that fight.
  • The Fifteenth Amendment to our Constitution ensured that “The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.”
  • The National Woman Suffrage Association (NWSA) was formed in 1869 by Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, fighting to secure an amendment to the Constitution in favor of women’s suffrage. That amendment did not come to pass until 1920.
  • President John F Kennedy, in his civil rights speech of June 11, 1963, asked for legislation “giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities which are open to the public—hotels, restaurants, theaters, retail stores, and similar establishments,” as well as “greater protection for the right to vote.”

The advocacy of civil rights prevailed, and the bigots who thumped on their Bibles, quoting chapter and verse in order to justify their hateful positions, were relegated to the margins of society when they were recognized for what they were.

Of course, conservative religious people have no problem attempting to force their morality on others. Need I remind you of the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution? Don’t forget that it is the only amendment to the Constitution that has been repealed. That experiment in forced conservative morality failed.

We live in a secular society, zdenny. It doesn’t matter whether or not you wish to admit that fact. It doesn’t matter whether or not you like that fact. It’s still a fact. People like you think that your supposed numerical majority [See below for more on this.] (along with God™) gives you the right to dictate the morality of others. Our secular government protects people like me from people like you. Your projection is duly noted, and duly thrashed, trashed, exposed, and ridiculed.

Extending rights to people who deserve those rights by virtue of being human beings is not forcing anyone’s morality on you. Gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans-gender individuals deserve the right to be part of a married couple. Bigots like you will not be allowed to stop that from happening.

Natural Selection → Christianity?!?! WTF?!?!

Zdenny said:

Natural selection has chosen Christianity as the best moral system for the survival of the human race. You should learn to respect natural selection!

What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? Why on earth would you try to use natural selection as any type of argument when you’re a creationist? The only thing that Christianity’s moral system has to do with natural selection is the fact that a few things that Christianity lays claim to, like “Thou shalt not kill”, are actually hard-wired into most of our brains from countless generations past. As far as Christianity being the “best moral system for the survival of the human race”, you are very sadly mistaken. The history of Christianity has shown that it is, indeed, no bastion of high morality. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Christianity is Huge! And it’s Based on Love!

Zdenny said:

Christianity is based on love and not lust. The fact that people lust for each other is not love. Christianity is the largest belief system in the world because it recognizes the reality of love being different than lust.

Christianity is based on the writings of a bunch of self-important guys on power trips in the desert nearly two thousand years ago. Christianity is the largest if you want to go by sheer numbers.

But, there’s something you’re leaving out when you claim that Christianity is so huge. The only time most Christians want to accept that Catholics are actually Christians is when they want to boast about how big Christianity is. Any other time they’d be calling them idolaters (and often much worse). Why is that?

What about all the other Christian groups? Do you always claim their kinship, their brotherly love, calling them your own, even though you have differences in your beliefs? What about these groups:

  • African Independent Churches (AICs),
  • Aglipayan Church,
  • Amish,
  • Anglicans,
  • Armenian Apostolic,
  • Assemblies of God,
  • Baptists,
  • Calvary Chapel,
  • Catholics,
  • Christadelphians,
  • Christian Science,
  • Community of Christ,
  • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (The ‘Mormons’),
  • Coptic Christians,
  • Eastern Orthodox,
  • Ethiopian Orthodox,
  • Evangelicals,
  • Iglesia ni Cristo,
  • Jehovah’s Witnesses,
  • the Local Church,
  • Lutherans,
  • Methodists,
  • Monophysites,
  • Nestorians,
  • New Apostolic Church,
  • Pentecostals,
  • Plymouth Brethren,
  • Presbyterians,
  • Salvation Army,
  • Seventh-Day Adventists,
  • Shakers,
  • Stone-Campbell churches (Disciples of Christ; Churches of Christ; the “Christian Church and Churches of Christ”; the International Church of Christ),
  • Uniate churches,
  • United Church of Christ/Congregationalists,
  • the Unity Church,
  • Universal Church of the Kingdom of God,
  • Vineyard churches.

What about those and many others? You must claim that they are all basically the same, and that their views are the same as yours if you wish to include them in your numbers. We both know that isn’t true, so stop lying about how huge your religion is.

One of the biggest problems zdenny has with his argument at this point is that a large number of the Christians in this world don’t have a problem with homosexuality. They don’t see anything wrong with it. Zdenny will, of course, say that these people aren’t True Chistians™. Well, zdenny, if that’s so, then you can’t claim them as part of your group, so your numbers aren’t as high as you claim.

One other thing that you forget is that what you and your fellow Christians believe doesn’t fucking matter! Once again, though I’m sure it won’t sink through your thick skull, we have a secular government, not a religious government. Your objections and concern have been noted. We don’t give a shit. Please move along now, like a nice little twit.

Atheists Can’t Love

Zdenny spewed the following:

The godless want everything to be lust (fulfillment of selfish interest); however, true love involved the sacrifice of self-interest which is irrational in an Atheistic worldview. This is the big weakness of the godless mindset because everyone knows that chemicals don’t love chemicals.

Who said anything about atheists? There are a very large number of Christian homosexuals, zdenny. Take, for instance, Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson, a vocal gay rights leader. I would think that an Episcopal Bishop knows religion much better than some parroting evangelical bigot such as yourself.

Do you consider Bishop Robinson to be a Christian, zdenny? Do you consider yourself to have higher moral standards than an Episcopal Bishop? Do you think it’s impossible for Bishop Robinson to feel love because he is a homosexual? Do you think he is an unrepentant sinner because he is openly gay, and likes it that way?

Atheists Shouldn’t Even Want Marriage

The idea of the godless supporting a religious institution of marriage is also contradictory. I never thought they would support the idea; however, I have never found the godless to be very consistent in their use of reason.

Again, you keep equating homosexuality or the support of same sex marriage as being godless. Your inference is completely unsupported, as well as being pretty fucking stupid.

At any rate, who said anything about “a religious institution of marriage” in the first place? In this country, marriage is a contract between the two individuals being married. The state recognizes that contract if it has been entered into legally, and the two individuals then have certain legal rights and responsibilities which are granted by virtue of that contract.

If you want to have a religious marriage ceremony, there’s nothing stopping you from doing so at any time. All you have to do is find a religious leader of some sort who will perform the ceremony. You can probably find some religious leader out there who will perform a marriage ceremony for you and your next-door-neighbor’s dog. I’m sure you’ll be very happy together.

If you want a marriage which will be recognized by the state, however, it has nothing to do with religion. You can have a religious ceremony if you want, or a civil ceremony. What matters is the contract that the two parties enter into.

And In Conclusion…

Zdenny is quite obviously a concern troll, as well as a bigot and a homophobe. He’s a religious nut who wants to force everyone in the world to think like he does. He will grasp at any straws to attempt to support his outlandish claims, yet constantly fails in his attempts. He routinely disavows such failures. Instead, he claims that his logic has actually trumped any argument from truly competent individuals, and that he is triumphant because of his logic and God’s Love™.

Zdenny will never change his mind because of a logical argument. It is impossible to reason with a person whose mind is completely beyond reason. I consider him to be a hopelessly lost cause. His only use, as far as I am concerned, is as a teaching tool to illustrate the illogic, the self-righteousness, the hatred, and the bigotry of the truly religious mind.

I consider zdenny to be a classic illustration of the Dunning-Kruger effect. For further information about this cognitive bias in which “people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it” in “Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments” (PDF file, 498.2 KB), the 1999 article in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology by Justin Kruger and David Dunning.

29 comments

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  1. Mike Haubrich, FCD

    For the Win, Dan, with this note:

    But, there’s something you’re leaving out when you claim that Christianity is so huge. The only time most Christians want to accept that Catholics are actually Christians is when they want to boast about how big Christianity is. Any other time they’d be calling them idolaters (and often much worse). Why is that?

    This is a pretty good parry, I don’t even think that zDenny will see the irony in the idea the Godless want to stop them from forcing the gays to stop forcing them to accept gayness. It’s so twisted.

  2. zdenny

    1. Dan stated, “how deeply the hatred and bigotry against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans-gendered individuals is ingrained in the minds of many Christians.”

    When a Christian wants to help homosexuals, you label them as being full of hatred and bigotry. I personally think you are the one that is being unintentionally cruel towards those living the homosexual lifestyle.

    A person that keeps on telling a kid to touch a hot stove that is burning their fingers is child abuse. When you tell a homosexual that God can’t change their heart or life, you are effectively abusing those caught up in that lifestyle. I personally believe your approach is extremely cruel towards a group of people that suffer from high suicide rates and high disease rates. When you keep on encouraging people to perform an activity that is literally killing them, I really don’t believe there is any love in your heart which is my point!

    You have to know the love of God before you can help anyone. It doesn’t matter if it is a homeless guy or a hungry child! You have to be able to see outside the bubble of self and do what is right simply because it is the right thing to do.

    We know that the homosexual lifestyle is one that ends in death. When I see people jumping off a cliff killing themselves, I speak up and say, “STOP.” However, you just keep on telling them to jump.

    If you need proof that this lifestyle is killing them, check out this link:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/26/AR2008062603521.html

    Since the arguments are not on your side, you simply engage in name calling rather than helping people that are really hurting on the inside.

    2. You stated, “Are you completely unaware that many of those Christians are homosexuals themselves”

    Christianity has always argued that we are sinners in need of a Savior. Do I know that some Christians lie, cheat and steal too… Yes! However, Christians also know these activities are not God’s best because of God’s love that is at work in our hearts. When a person comes to Christ, the love of God begins to change their heart as they learn about the reality of love (grow in love). Your conversion to Christianity is only the beginning of your spiritual journey, not the end.

    3. Your third argument, “Why on earth would you try to use natural selection as any type of argument when you’re a creationist?”

    Actually, you are again wrong Dan. Christians believe in natural selection; however, they don’t believe it is a mechanism for evolution. Our understanding of natural selection has grown since the days of Darwin. We now know that there is no connection between natural selection and our genes. The Answers in Genesis site even says, “natural selection is consistent with creation’s “orchard” of life not the evolutionary “tree” of life”

    http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/museum/2009/03/16/natural-selection-exhibit-opens/

    4. Christianity as a faith does have superior morality. Love is the greatest virtue. As the apostle Paul says, “Now faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.” Christianity is superior because it is based on love. Does this mean that all Christians are consistent? No, because we are all sinners who are growing in our knowledge of God’s love. Only in Christianity does love become real and something that all mankind is called to participate in. In fact, it is what brings all uniting humanity because love is applied to both your friends and your enemies in Christianity.

    I have worked in the jails, hospitals, homeless shelters, nursing homes and I can say with absolute certainty that I have never ran into an atheist. Christians who are full of the love of God are compelled to love their fellow man. Atheist only do it to get a good feeling and I think most would rather enjoy a hot shower to get that good feeling.

    5. You stated that Christians contain diversity and you are correct. We are just as diverse as Darwinians in our interpretation. A Darwinian interpretation that is different doesn’t mean that they cease to be a Darwinian.

    6. Marriage is in fact a religious institution that demonstrates to the public the eternal nature of love. If you believe in marriage, then you believe that mankind has a meta-narrative which is a Christian idea. Why do the godless force their morality on people? It is because they don’t believe in the reality of love. Since they don’t believe love is real, love cannot change people. Since love is unable to change people, you believe you have to force your morality on others.

    Dan, you can know the love of God that is found in Christ Jesus! Living within the love of God is the best life and one you come to know over time as a Christian. Without love, you only have lust and this is what the godless preach. Aren’t you getting a little tired of living on lust and hate?

    I have shown no person any hate nor have I called anyone a name. I am simply showing love to you all. For that, I am rewarded with verbal abuse (which is expected on my part from the godless). I think your blog is a testament to how much hatred there is in the world… It also demonstrates that we need the love of God that is found through Jesus Christ.

    God Bless…

    1. chaosagent

      zdenny said: “When a Christian wants to help homosexuals, you label them as being full of hatred and bigotry. I personally think you are the one that is being unintentionally cruel towards those living the homosexual lifestyle.”

      Except when that ‘help’ is hatred and bigotry. How would you feel if you were told that you needed to be fixed because you were male? Someone being cruel because they want people to be treated equally? WTF man? They really washed your brain good. Here, let’s help these people know god’s love by going into their lands and killing them for following a different desert god. Let’s help these people know god’s love by forcing them to live in a way inconsistant with their own feelings and thoughts, but if you don’t let us ‘fix them’ you’re the one that’s cruel. Hypocrisy, you’re doin’ it right.

      zdenny said: “A person that keeps on telling a kid to touch a hot stove that is burning their fingers is child abuse. When you tell a homosexual that God can’t change their heart or life, you are effectively abusing those caught up in that lifestyle. I personally believe your approach is extremely cruel towards a group of people that suffer from high suicide rates and high disease rates. When you keep on encouraging people to perform an activity that is literally killing them, I really don’t believe there is any love in your heart which is my point!”

      Wow, you defeat your own argument. Do you know why gays and lesbians have high suicide rates? It’s because of people like you. You are the ones that tell them they are wrong. You tell them they are sinners and going to hell. You and everyone like you are the reason that things like this go on. How about you try something else for a change. How about you stay the fuck out of everyone else’s life and they’ll stay out of yours. Simple, huh? Wait, I might as well argue with a wall for all you listen to a word anyone says. There’s that whole willful ignorance again. Oh and the disease rate among gay men, particularly gay African American males? That’s the whole ‘down low’ thing. Like Ted Haggard, minus the crystal meth. You know, gay men have even lower acceptance in many African American churches, so they sneak around so they aren’t ostracized by idiots like you. Then they go back to their ‘acceptable’ lives and not only infect themselves with disease but also other partners. It’s a very sad thing that could easily go away if people would quit burying their heads in the sand.

      zdenny said: “Christianity as a faith does have superior morality. Love is the greatest virtue. As the apostle Paul says, “Now faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.” Christianity is superior because it is based on love. Does this mean that all Christians are consistent? No, because we are all sinners who are growing in our knowledge of God’s love. Only in Christianity does love become real and something that all mankind is called to participate in. In fact, it is what brings all uniting humanity because love is applied to both your friends and your enemies in Christianity.”

      And by our love they will know us. As we rape, kill and destroy their lands. Like the crusades. Like the witch hunts. But you know, they didn’t know how to love, real love, so they had to be corrected and shown the way. Or we’ll fucking kill them. And we are WAY more moral that they are. Because we’re right, and they’re wrong. I sure would hate to be your friend if you apply the same kind of love to friends and enemies. How the fuck are there any people left in this world with that kind of ‘love’?

      zdenny said: “I have worked in the jails, hospitals, homeless shelters, nursing homes and I can say with absolute certainty that I have never ran into an atheist. ”

      Except for when they do. Like me. Most people don’t just walk up to strangers and announce their political and social views when they’re trying to work. Me, I’m more interested in making sure the people that I’m supposed to be taking care of are fine. It’s not for a good feeling, it’s to accord those people the respect that I hope one day another will show me when I’m old and infirm. As I said before, fuck you for trying to know what others are feeling. Atheists, gays, and non-xtians aren’t subhuman, regardless of how you keep trying to paint that picture.

      zdenny said: “Marriage is in fact a religious institution that demonstrates to the public the eternal nature of love. If you believe in marriage, then you believe that mankind has a meta-narrative which is a Christian idea. Why do the godless force their morality on people? It is because they don’t believe in the reality of love. Since they don’t believe love is real, love cannot change people. Since love is unable to change people, you believe you have to force your morality on others.”

      Except for plenty of other faiths that predated x-tian beliefs also had marriage. And I didn’t go to a church to get my marriage license. I went to a government office. As I said, never once was religion brought up in the ten minutes it took for me to get the license. A friend performed the ceremony. It was and is still completely legal. You see, I live in the United States, with is not a theocracy, irregardless of how often that lie is stated.

      zdenny said: “Dan, you can know the love of God that is found in Christ Jesus! Living within the love of God is the best life and one you come to know over time as a Christian. Without love, you only have lust and this is what the godless preach. Aren’t you getting a little tired of living on lust and hate?”

      Sorry, I don’t share my man. If jebus needs a date, he can go fucking find his own. If he wants a divorce to go be with jebus he’s gonna have speak up, but if he does, he ain’t getting any of that money he married me for. We enjoy our lustful relationship and have for the past 14 years thank you very much. Preach? About what? That we don’t need someone else’s approval to be happy?

      zdenny said: “I have shown no person any hate nor have I called anyone a name.”

      Except that people with ‘teh ghey’ need to be fixed by jebus because they are just abusing themselves with their hateful suicidal lifestyle.

      zdenny said: ” I am simply showing love to you all. For that, I am rewarded with verbal abuse (which is expected on my part from the godless).”

      By forcing your morals on others. And threatening them with eternal torture because they are subhumans that don’t feel or know. And then claim you are the one being oppressed.

      zdenny said: “I think your blog is a testament to how much hatred there is in the world… It also demonstrates that we need the love of God that is found through Jesus Christ.”

      LOL! You’re the one that’s stirring up the hate. Helen Keller could even see that. Get over yourself. Really.

    2. Dan J

      The garbage almost literally flows from zdenny’s keyboard:

      When a Christian wants to help homosexuals, you label them as being full of hatred and bigotry. I personally think you are the one that is being unintentionally cruel towards those living the homosexual lifestyle.

      This has been pointed out to you time and time again. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Trans-gender people do not want your help. They are not in need of your “assistance”, which entails denying who and what they are.

      There are individuals who want to deny who they are, and they do seek out the assistance of Christian groups to achieve those ends. I feel sorry for them, but if they are consenting adults, it’s up to them.

      When you tell a homosexual that God can’t change their heart or life, you are effectively abusing those caught up in that lifestyle.

      I’m not telling them any such thing. I’m telling them that it’s perfectly okay for them to be who they are, and that I support them in their efforts to gain the civil rights that they deserve, despite your attempts to deny them those rights.

      You have to know the love of God before you can help anyone.

      Bullshit! What the fuck gives you the self-righteousness to tell me that I’m unable to help anyone!?!?! You are a hateful bigot. It shows in every single comment you make.

      We know that the homosexual lifestyle is one that ends in death.

      We also know that the Christian lifestyle is one that ends in death. So does the Muslim lifestyle, as does the atheist lifestyle, as does the heterosexual lifestyle, as does the celibate lifestyle, etc., ad infinitum. Life ends in death. Get over it.

      When I see people jumping off a cliff killing themselves, I speak up and say, “STOP.” However, you just keep on telling them to jump.

      It never did cross your feeble little brain cells that the reason that person is about to jump off of that bridge is because you keep telling them that they are a sinner, that what they are doing is an abomination before god, and that if they would only allow you to help them deny who they are and what they feel, everything would be okay, and you won’t try to keep them from being full citizens any more? No, that thought would never enter your fragile little mind, would it? You’re in denial zdenny.

      If you need proof that this lifestyle is killing them, check out this link:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/26/AR2008062603521.html

      Since the arguments are not on your side, you simply engage in name calling rather than helping people that are really hurting on the inside.

      You continue to give evidence of your lack of reading comprehension. Did you read all of that article, or only the headline? Did you notice that the steepest rise was in young black men? Did you even know that the stigma associated with homosexuality is much stronger in the black community? Did you know that the rise is because of a rise in the frequency of unprotected sexual intercourse? Are you aware of a stigma regarding condom usage?

      From the article in question:

      A study published online last month in the American Journal of Public Health showed that prevention messages tailored for gay black men can work.

      Researchers recruited “opinion leaders” in the gay communities of three cities in North Carolina. The people were trained to talk to their peers not only about ways to protect themselves from HIV but also about other issues, such as homophobia in some black churches and racism.

      A year later, the frequency of unprotected high-risk intercourse was down 30 percent in the three gay communities, and the number or people who said they always used condoms was up a similar amount.

      You don’t care about such issues though, because in your self-righteous view that’s not ‘helping’ the homosexuals, it’s only enabling them to continue their un-Christian lifestyle.

      Am I engaging in name-calling? Yes, I’m calling you a self-righteous hateful bigot. Do you know what else? It’s true.

      The Answers in Genesis site even says…

      Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha *breathe* ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha *breathe* ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

      You’re going to have to do better for a source than those IDiots. Their ‘science’ has been soundly refuted by people who actually know what the fuck they’re doing time and time again. It does make sense to me that you would believe such garbage, though.

      Christianity as a faith does have superior morality.

      I have to stop myself from laughing or I’ll never get this response typed. Superior to what? Superior to killing all of the neighboring tribes because they worship different gods? Oh, wait, no, that’s part of it, too. It really isn’t superior to much of anything.

      I have worked in the jails, hospitals, homeless shelters, nursing homes and I can say with absolute certainty that I have never ran into an atheist.

      I happen to work at a retirement home. I’ve spent time in hospitals, jails, prisons, and homeless shelters. Atheists are there, just as Christians are, both as people in need of assistance, and people giving that assistance. You’ve apparently been hanging out at the wrong places. Oh, wait… you were at the Christian hospitals, nursing homes, and homeless shelters. You were at the jails seeing incarcerated individuals who expressed an interest in being preached to, because that’s the reason you went there in the first place.

      You stated that Christians contain diversity and you are correct.

      You’re deliberately avoiding my point. Nice try at misdirection, you hypocritical lying bastard.

      Marriage is in fact a religious institution that demonstrates to the public the eternal nature of love. If you believe in marriage, then you believe that mankind has a meta-narrative which is a Christian idea.

      Did you and Chaz get married in a church, with a minister officiating? If so, then you had a religious ceremony. Did you also have a marriage license that had to be filled out and returned to the County for processing? If not, then you aren’t legally married in the eyes of the state.

      Like I said, zdenny, the state doesn’t give a fuck about your religion, as long as the forms are filled out correctly. Where on earth did you get the idea that being married was an idea invented by the Christians? You really need to read something besides your Bible and the ‘Answers in Genesis’ [*snicker*] web site to learn about history.

      Dan, you can know the love of God that is found in Christ Jesus!

      Sorry, but I can no more ‘know’ such a thing than I can ‘know’ that there is a Tooth Fairy, or that the Invisible Pink Unicorn is the supreme being, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the Universe. I understand the difference between fantasy and reality. You, apparently, do not.

      Aren’t you getting a little tired of living on lust and hate?

      The lust is actually pretty good once in a while. Just ask my wife. It goes hand in hand with romantic love. The way you put it, I’m guessing that Chaz is really missing out. I feel sorry for her.

      As for hatred, I don’t easily ‘hate’ other individuals. I reserve that for extremely special cases, of which there have only been a few in my entire lifetime.

      I certainly don’t hate you, zdenny. You have my pity, not my hatred, because you’re missing out on being able to know a great many very cool people.

      You’ll never be able to call Peter (petursey) or his boyfriend your friends, because you only see them as people who need to be changed so that they can be saved. They don’t need to be saved. They’re wonderful people, and if I lived closer I’d love to go over and have dinner with them once in a while. Did you know that Peter also takes beautiful photographs? Did you know that he’s a dog-lover as well? (I prefer cats, myself.)

      Don’t you see what your missing? Don’t you understand how much of the beauty and joy of life you close yourself off to because of your bigotry? No, I suppose you don’t. Your Bible™ and your God™ won’t let you.

    3. Mike Haubrich, FCD

      Been told that before, but it is getting really tedious. Share the love if you must but let other people choose the way they live life if they don’t accept your message. Why is this so hard? Not everyone wants “Love” in the way you think they should have it, and your insistence that they are too stupid to know better is why people think that you are hateful.

  3. zdenny

    Oh my, here is another one of those things that atheist say can’t happen. A person was delivered from homosexuality through the love of Christ.

    Check out his story

    http://blackchristiannews.com/news/2009/11/pastor-and-gospel-artist-donnie-mcclurkin-speaks-out-against-homosexuality-he-admits-he-has-homosexu.html

    1. Dan J

      You truly don’t understand, do you? Zdenny, none of us have ever said that someone who has romantic and sexual interests in members of the same gender will always have those exact same interests.

      The Pastor in the link you provided also reminded me of a Shakespeare quote:

      “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”

      I cannot say that I know his thoughts, but it could very well be the case that Pastor McClurkin is so vehemently bigoted against homosexuals because of his own self-loathing. From the article’s subheading: “He Admits He Has Homosexual Thoughts”. Sounds to me like he’s struggling every day to deny who and what he really is. That’s a very unhealthy thing, psychologically speaking.

      The range of sexual preference is not a simple ‘either/or’ switch. The key word is range. Bisexual individuals are closer to the center of that range than most people. Not everything in the Universe is as black and white as you would like it to be, zdenny. Most of us are very thankful for that fact.

      1. Jason Thibeault

        I love that, when someone loves Jesus more than themselves, and decide to pray themselves away from their own natural genetic tendencies, other theists use that as proof that “gayness can be cured”. Just because you fooled some gays into thinking that gayness NEEDS curing, and those gay people are on their knees doing something other than their natural proclivities, doesn’t mean that a) their gayness is altered in any way other than through suppression, nor b) that the distraction of theism is anything but a distraction.

        I mean, otherwise, if God could really “cure” them, he’d never have made them that way to begin with. What kind of perfect, omniscient, omnipotent being makes creatures that are not exactly what he wants? And if he doesn’t want them to be exactly that way, then is it because he’s not perfect enough to do so, or because he’s not perfect enough to fix it? Since “there’s a god and praying to him can make you not-gay like he wants you to, if only you believe yourself to be not-gay hard enough” looks functionally identical to “there’s not really a god, but we believe there is one, and that he doesn’t like gayness, so you have to believe in the non-existent being hard enough and believe yourself to be not-gay hard enough to distract yourself from your natural tendencies for a while”, how can you honestly use being able to “pray yourself distracted” as proof that your god exists?

  4. Julie

    “Natural selection has chosen Christianity as the best moral system for the survival of the human race.”

    I needed a good laugh 🙂

  5. zdenny

    I appreciate all your comments; however, I really don’t think you have much to offer in terms of being reasonable.

    Chaos said, “Do you know why gays and lesbians have high suicide rates? It’s because of people like you.”

    Dan then stated, “because you keep telling them that they are a sinner”

    Dan and Choas prove my point here. You believe in “thought-crimes” This is why you are attempting to censor people who disagree with you. Christians in the US gave us a system that included free speech and freedom of religion so that debate can take place. You are saying that the debate leads to the death of homosexuals so we need to censor debate.

    This explains why Obama is censoring Foxnews and also why they censor viewpoints that oppose Darwinian evolution. For the godless, it is all about censorship because if people disagree, someone may go out and kill themselves.

    I reject this logic and believe that open debate and open disagreements are positive. The way you make society stronger is by encouraging thought rather than censoring it. However, you have to know the love of God; otherwise, people who don’t know love attempt to force everyone else to accept their morality through non-democratic means.

    Suicide is a demonstration of extreme selfishness having nothing to do with anyone else. Christians have nothing to do with homosexuals getting sexual diseases. This is done all on their own.

    Dan stated it best when he said, “This has been pointed out to you time and time again. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Trans-gender people do not want your help. They are not in need of your “assistance”, which entails denying who and what they are.”

    In other words, when you see people hurting and in need of help, you are supposed to ignore them. How sad! It simply proves my point that there is no love in your heart at all. If I see people killing themselves, I really don’t care what they think! I am going to try helping them because the love of God compels me to love my fellow man.

    This is the difference between us. I believe in the reality of love and you don’t. You view of love is merely a chemical reaction that gives you a good feeling. While millions are dying all around you, you can still feel good by eating some cheetos.

    Christians are able to see other people and reach out to them in love. The godless by Dan’s own admission are unable to do that.

    The suicide rates among homosexuals are due to the fact that we don’t have enough love in our society yet. We need more people who are willing to love these folks. However, using Dan’s model of leave them alone to die philosophy, I have little hope that this love will come from the godless community.

    God Bless.

    1. Dan J

      Zdenny spewed:

      Dan and Choas prove my point here. You believe in “thought-crimes” This is why you are attempting to censor people who disagree with you. Christians in the US gave us a system that included free speech and freedom of religion so that debate can take place. You are saying that the debate leads to the death of homosexuals so we need to censor debate.

      Absolutely fucking wrong and clueless. Anyone who infers that from what was stated has no comprehension skills at all. That means you, zdenny.

      How the fuck is stating that Christian homophobes shouting at homosexuals, protesting them, calling them sinners, calling them degenerates, calling them abominations, linked with censoring someone who disagrees with me? You have the right to state those things, and to believe them. You certainly don’t have the right to then claim the moral high ground.

      Debate is not leading to the death of homosexuals. Your fucking attitude and actions lead to the death of homosexuals.

      And do not even start with bullshit like this:

      Christians in the US gave us a system that included free speech and freedom of religion so that debate can take place.

      Making a statement like that means you are a fucking liar. The facts of that matter have been pointed out to you several times. Continuing to ignore those facts will not help your case. It is also irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

      This explains why Obama is censoring Foxnews and also why they censor viewpoints that oppose Darwinian evolution. For the godless, it is all about censorship because if people disagree, someone may go out and kill themselves.

      Now I think I see a large part of the problem:

      httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

      Zdenny appears to not understand the word ‘censorship’.

      Who is trying to censor you? We’re trying to get legislation passed that allows loving couples who happen to be of the same gender get married just like any other loving couple would. You’re trying to stop it. You still haven’t given a reason why same-sex marriage should not be allowed, other than your religious bullshit, which has no place in secular law.

      You’re also bringing up the words ‘Darwinian’ and ‘godless’. Are you unaware that many Christians think that same-sex marriage is a good idea? They must not be ‘True Christians™’.

      This isn’t a religious issue, though you keep trying to make it one. It’s a civil rights issue, and a human rights issue. You just happen to be on the side of the homophobic bigots because of your dogmatic religious views.

      In other words, when you see people hurting and in need of help, you are supposed to ignore them. How sad! It simply proves my point that there is no love in your heart at all. If I see people killing themselves, I really don’t care what they think! I am going to try helping them because the love of God compels me to love my fellow man.

      Yet another load of horse shit from the mouth of zdenny. The people who you think of as “hurting and in need of help” do not think of themselves that way. You are intent on inflicting your idea of help on those who do not need it and do not want it. You are the one forcing your ideas on other people.

      Zdenny says, “…I really don’t care what they think!” That’s the crux of the issue. You don’t care about these people. You only care about your holy book and the chance to increase your odds of getting into the imaginary heaven that you’ve been sold on, hook line, and sinker. You’re fucking pathetic.

      Christians are able to see other people and reach out to them in love. The godless by Dan’s own admission are unable to do that.

      You’re also a fucking liar!

      The suicide rates among homosexuals are due to the fact that we don’t have enough love in our society yet. We need more people who are willing to love these folks. However, using Dan’s model of leave them alone to die philosophy, I have little hope that this love will come from the godless community.

      Might I suggest that you overcome your fear long enough to actually have a conversation with some people who gay, lesbian, bisexual, or trans-gender. Ask them what kind of love they want. Ask them if they would rather have the right to marry their partner, or be forced to enter some sort of Christian re-education program.

      You’re a fucking pathetic, homophobic bigot, zdenny. Many times I wonder why I let you spew your filth on my blog. At the very least you can always serve as an example of the hatred the Evangelical Christians in this country have toward people who aren’t just like them.

      1. zdenny

        Dan, I think the real issue is whether you love anyone at all. If you can’t love me, I am certain you really don’t love anyone my friend.

        The fact is I show up on your blog out of love for you! I want everyone to grow in their knowledge of love towards all men.

        However, the facts are in and gays have high suicide rates and death rates. Sexual disease in particular has nothing to do with Christians.

        If everyone actually lived a life of love, we wouldn’t have any of these issues.

        God’s plan is one man loving one woman for life. If this standard was met, we would have tainted blood supplies, we wouldn’t have HIV going around, we wouldn’t have people commiting suicide.

        Homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators etc.. present a danger to the rest of the world as well as to themselves. There are literally hundreds of stories of people getting aids from tainted blood supplies. When a person gets HIV, it doesn’t show up sometimes for a couple of years.

        “An estimated 1 in 450,000 to 1 in 660,000 donations per year are infectious for HIV but are not detected by current antibody screening tests. ”

        The godless don’t stop their death march there though. They go on to kill babies and they want to allow doctors to kill old people. In addition, they want to make recreational drug usage an everyday normalized thing for all Americans which results in more deaths.

        Christians just look at the stupidity and write it off as selfishness that is not guided by reason. You have to know the love of God to even think correctly about these issues.

        Dan, you need the love of God. The love of God will change your life. Instead of being angry and full of hate, you would be full of love. When you see people hurting themselves, you will want to reach out in love to those people.

        Your anger towards the only people group that want to help homosexuals is very telling. Christians can just look at the facts and see what the world needs. We need more love rather than hate. We need more understanding rather than blind disrepect towards those who disagree with us.

    2. chaosagent

      There’s that old willful ignorance again. You know what, I don’t feel like arguing your stupidity today because I have the flu, no voice, my head is pounding and there are better things to do, like watch cartoons and read comic books.

      Don’t tell me about censorship and thoughtcrimes when your whole religion is based on that nonsense. You aren’t helping people by butting into their lives where you aren’t wanted. How hard is that to understand. You don’t like that people tell you to mind your own damn business? Tough shit. Eat a bowl of dicks. Get over yourself and get fucked. Okay?

      1. zdenny

        Choas…thanks… you prove my point. You need the love of God too! Perhaps then you will be able to see that even those who disagree with you have value.

  6. zdenny

    Oh my, Exodus International is telling other nations to not crimilize homosexuality because it stops people full of the love of God from being able to help them.

    I guess the godless just don’t understand what love is all about…it is best to avoid the fruitcake philosophy that comes from homosexual activitist. Christians who know the love of God have zero hate in their heart for everyone. Love and hate just don’t mix.

    Check out this link…

    http://blackchristiannews.com/news/2009/11/christian-ministry-exodus-international-opposes-ugandas-proposed-anti-homosexual-law.html

    1. chaosagent

      Oh and try using an unbiased source asshole. It might help your argument and make you look like less of a lolcow douchebag.

      God’s Love: You’re doin’ it right!
      Jesus' Love

  7. HrothgirOD

    Well, anyone who relies on AiG for references, and equates ‘love’ with eternal damnation really doesn’t have a leg to stand on

    1. zdenny

      Love is your choice. God is love; however, if you want to enjoy the life of God for eternity, you have to choose love.

      God is not going to force you to love as forced love is a contradiction. Hell is merely your separation from the life of God for eternity. It is your choice.

  8. Todd

    I think I have just found my new calling thanks to zdenny.

    I am now starting a ministry to help narrow minded religious bigots overcome their degrading christian lifestyle by learning to accept their homosexual tendencies.

    Yes, zdenny, even you can learn to stop seeing the world in such a simplistic black and white way. You too can find the freedom that comes from letting go of the hatred and stupidity that eats away at your inner peace and makes you such a bigoted asshole.

    Join me on the road to true happiness as I help you to embrace the wonders of hot gay sex.

    Sign up today.

    You know you want to.

    1. zdenny

      I don’t deny that we all have sinful impulses! Our impulses prove that we are under the curse of sin. We need the love of God to overcome our lust. The only way to overcome lust is with love.

  9. Jeremy Witteveen

    Thanks for the post and the conversation.

    Fortunately, I have been convinced to repent of my evil ways and give god’s love a try.

    Today when I see my brother in law and his partner during our weekly dinner together, I’m going to tell them how much I love them. I going to tell them that their love for each other is not godly and that they are going to die, because of the diseases and suicide that they are going to inflict on themselves. I will reinforce how miserable they are over and over. This will be most important. I will tell them that the 14 years they’ve been together can’t help them as much as god’s love, because THAT will save them from the self-destructive lifestyle “choice” of homosexuality.

    And when I am finished, I will be fully prepared for the transcendent glow of god’s love to descend upon me and raise me five feet above the floor, and my angel wings to unfurl from my back in majestic glory.

    Favor with god will truly be more impressive to my brother in law and his partner than the unconditional love I’ve shown to them for the past 10 years.

    As for the topic of hetero marriage, I’m glad Tina and I had our wedding at a museum of contemporary art where only love was allowed and not religious discrimination or hate. All were welcome and enriched by the culture and love that is art and secularism.

    Namaste.

    1. zdenny

      There is a reason they have high suicide rates and high disease rates. There are is also a reason why innocent people are dying due to tainted blood supplies. When you go outside of God’s plan, it always results in death. In fact the Bible says, “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ…”

  10. Jeremy Witteveen

    Just an update: my brother-in-law didn’t convert. He’s still gay. He and his partner did not see the error of their ways. I tried. I tried really hard.

    Sorry guys. I know you had your hopes up.

    1. Dan J

      There must be something we can do. Couldn’t we “shanghai” them and take them to Exodus Ministries to have them exorcised or something? Surely it must be demons that are keeping them in such a depraved lifestyle, and keeping them away from the love of God™. (See above for some real Jesus-lovin’!)

      I suppose that we’d be open to kidnapping and assault charges if we try to force them though. But since it’s all in the name of Jesus, that makes it alright, right?

    2. zdenny

      The Bible says that the path of love is a narrow path. The vast majority live a life of lust and find reasons to justify it. Even though we know rationally that drugs can kill you, some still do drugs. The fact that we know that playing chicken with cars can kill you, some still do… Reason oftentimes is a loser when a person is driven by passion…

  11. petursey

    wow !!! Just wow !

    I knew zdenny was a hate filled bigot…but the crap he’s spouted on here just defies belief

    Thanks for everyone else who’s sane, unbigoted and “normal’ enough to accept their fellow man out there no matter who they sleep with for being supportive ..well not supportive..sort of correct in their behaviour and mature and unblinkered by religious bigotry.

    Dan and Mrs Dan (hope the cold is better) you’re welcome anytime ! Julie and Jeremy know they are…

    zdenny go crawl under your rock you odious filth spouting evil little bigot.

    1. zdenny

      I accept everyone unconditionally. In fact, that is why I blog because of my love for everyone. It doesn’t matter what type of activity they are engaged in because I know I am a sinner in need of a Savior just like everyone else. Once you understand our common humanity, it humbles you and you begin to see the value of the life of love and reason

  12. petursey

    I’m sorry zdenny..me and 1000’s of other don’t want, don’t need and don’t care for your type of “acceptance”

    We get that from our real freethinking unfettered by religious bullcrap friends….like the people on here..except for your one voice of hatred.

  13. Anna

    Well. I’m a Christian and I’m totally OK with gay marriage. Marriage is not just a Christian institution. In India, people marry dogs and trees. In France, you can marry someone who is dead. So, really. I don’t see the issue with gay marriage, as long as they don’t want to have a conservative Christian type of marriage, they can have at it!

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